Discussion:
Gear oil in a KX 250
(too old to reply)
Ken Shackleton
2005-10-25 21:38:07 UTC
Permalink
Hello All;

I realize that any comment on oil will cause a wide variety of
resonses.....however...

I have a 2001 KX250 and I was wondering if you all use motor oil in the
gearbox as specified by Kawasaki? Has anyone had problems and are there
alternatives?

Auto v. motorcycle?
Synthetic?
ATF?

Thanks
s***@motocross.com
2005-10-25 22:16:43 UTC
Permalink
I recently used some product from "7th Gear" and I really liked the
gear oil!!

I'd recommend it for your bike if you see it on the shelf.
dave m
2005-10-25 22:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Shackleton
I have a 2001 KX250 and I was wondering if you all use motor oil in the
gearbox as specified by Kawasaki? Has anyone had problems and are there
alternatives?
Auto v. motorcycle?
Synthetic?
ATF?
Dumonde Tech LWHS...so far so good.

-Dave
2000 KX250
Wudsracer
2005-10-26 01:09:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Shackleton
Hello All;
I realize that any comment on oil will cause a wide variety of
resonses.....however...
I have a 2001 KX250 and I was wondering if you all use motor oil in the
gearbox as specified by Kawasaki? Has anyone had problems and are there
alternatives?
Auto v. motorcycle?
Synthetic?
ATF?
Thanks
I don't ride a Kawasaki, most of the time, but according to the
books, they specify 10w30 motor oil.

I have been using Spectro 80wt (light viscosity two stroke gear oil
that is equivalent to 10 wt engine oil), mostly, for the last 8 years.
Last year, after having a customer recommend it to me, I started
testing Shell Rotella 5w40 synthetic oil. It is available at WalMart
for $13 per gallon. I liked it so much that it is now all that I am
using in my personal bike. The clutch drag has diminished and the
shifting action has smoothed. I have yet to feel any hint of clutch
slippage, and the bikes that I have looked inside of that have been
using this oil looked really good, with no noticeable wear.

My importer told me not to recommend any synthetic oils to my Gas
Gas customers (because of possible clutch slipping, so I don't.
But... I do tell them what I am using. <G>



Smackover Racing
Gas Gas DE300
Team LAGNAF
www.smackovermotorsports.com
sturd
2005-10-26 01:31:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wudsracer
Shell Rotella 5w40 synthetic oil
I've heard a couple good things about Rotella oils but
I didn't know that there was a synthetic. Now I've *got*
to try it.

I've never had a clutch slip problem with synthetics
either. YMMV.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.
s***@motocross.com
2005-10-26 02:41:32 UTC
Permalink
I also use Rotella in the KTM. Love it, no issues, altho it is changed
frequently which is the key I suppose...
PlowBoy
2005-10-26 15:51:01 UTC
Permalink
(Deforest Kelly {bones from startrek} voice)
Dammit Jim! LOL.

Now what the heck is 80wt gear oil? I use a substance called ROCK OIL, well
im out of it now nowhere to get more I guess, so switching to GM's Auto
track for now? But wait? I see your post, and go Hmmmm....

reason Im asking is, you know trials bikes, we use THIN lightwieght oils in
tranny. I switched to the above (fully synthetic) it is "clear" out of the
bottle so as it gets dark it tells you via sight glass how dirty it has
gotten... I love this stuff, sniff.

My buddies Sherco, all the sites suggest Maxima MTL 2-Cycle Transmission
Lube 75wt, I had to go with locally purchased BellRay GearSaver 75w? I
didnt open the bottle I just got it while in town, and assumed it is thick
gear oil? (laughing to myself about Sherco being light years behind Gasgas
kind of explains that one).

where does one find all this stuff out, like what is like what? is 75w not
75wt? Why is fork oil in 5,10,20w flavors, and I hear in cold people like
to use Dextron3 or fords type A in forks? now Im really lost...

thanks,

-confused in the heartland
Post by Wudsracer
On 25 Oct 2005 14:38:07 -0700, "Ken Shackleton"
Hello All;
I realize that any comment on oil will cause a wide variety of
resonses.....however...
I have a 2001 KX250 and I was wondering if you all use motor oil in the
gearbox as specified by Kawasaki? Has anyone had problems and are
there alternatives?
Auto v. motorcycle?
Synthetic?
ATF?
Thanks
I don't ride a Kawasaki, most of the time, but according to the
books, they specify 10w30 motor oil.
I have been using Spectro 80wt (light viscosity two stroke gear oil
that is equivalent to 10 wt engine oil), mostly, for the last 8 years.
Last year, after having a customer recommend it to me, I started
testing Shell Rotella 5w40 synthetic oil. It is available at WalMart
for $13 per gallon. I liked it so much that it is now all that I am
using in my personal bike. The clutch drag has diminished and the
shifting action has smoothed. I have yet to feel any hint of clutch
slippage, and the bikes that I have looked inside of that have been
using this oil looked really good, with no noticeable wear.
My importer told me not to recommend any synthetic oils to my Gas
Gas customers (because of possible clutch slipping, so I don't.
But... I do tell them what I am using. <G>
Smackover Racing
Gas Gas DE300
Team LAGNAF
www.smackovermotorsports.com
sturd
2005-10-26 16:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by PlowBoy
where does one find all this stuff out, like what is like what? is 75w not
75wt? Why is fork oil in 5,10,20w flavors, and I hear in cold people like
to use Dextron3 or fords type A in forks? now Im really lost...
It's confusing for sure. I figured out that 10 weight fork oils were
wildly
different and ended up measuring viscosity differences myself with a
timer and a pipette. It's the only way I could really figure out which
oil was more viscous.

Of course then there is the issue of temperature, thus some people
use ATF because it's viscosity is supposedly more temperature
independent. I didn't worry about temperature since by the
time the forks get hot, the moto is over for my little local races.

Maybe somebody out there can point to a short tutorial on
oil viscosity.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.
Wudsracer
2005-10-26 17:30:42 UTC
Permalink
Sting,
The Maxima is very good oil. It will take care of your
transmission, but I don't know about clutch action. ( The Pro clutch
gave them a lot of problems the first year.)
The Bel Ray Gearsaver works worse in the Gas Gas clutches than any
other oil that I have tried in the last 8 years (in terms of clutch
drag and notchy shifting). I have tried a lot of them.

On your Pro, use the GM purple (blue?) synthetic transmission oil.
It is what Jim Snell told me that would work best for the Gas Gas Pro
models.

Gear oil is rated differently than engine oil. The API (American
Petroleum Institute) rates "conventional" oils. For example, 90wt
gear oil is the same viscosity as 50 wt engine oil.
The difference is in the additives blended in to the base stock
oil. (to make 10w40 engine oil, the refinery takes a 10 wt bright
stock oil and mixes in additives that keep the oil from thinning as
much as the temperature rises. It still thins with temp rise, but
will thin as a 40 wt, instead of thinning to a point that 10 wt would
at the same temperature.)

Use the GM oil that Rising Sun recommends. Jim Snell is "The Man".

Jim Cook



**************************************************************
Post by PlowBoy
(Deforest Kelly {bones from startrek} voice)
Dammit Jim! LOL.
Now what the heck is 80wt gear oil? I use a substance called ROCK OIL, well
im out of it now nowhere to get more I guess, so switching to GM's Auto
track for now? But wait? I see your post, and go Hmmmm....
reason Im asking is, you know trials bikes, we use THIN lightwieght oils in
tranny. I switched to the above (fully synthetic) it is "clear" out of the
bottle so as it gets dark it tells you via sight glass how dirty it has
gotten... I love this stuff, sniff.
My buddies Sherco, all the sites suggest Maxima MTL 2-Cycle Transmission
Lube 75wt, I had to go with locally purchased BellRay GearSaver 75w? I
didnt open the bottle I just got it while in town, and assumed it is thick
gear oil? (laughing to myself about Sherco being light years behind Gasgas
kind of explains that one).
where does one find all this stuff out, like what is like what? is 75w not
75wt? Why is fork oil in 5,10,20w flavors, and I hear in cold people like
to use Dextron3 or fords type A in forks? now Im really lost...
thanks,
-confused in the heartland
*********************************************************




Smackover Racing
Gas Gas DE300
Team LAGNAF
www.smackovermotorsports.com
PlowBoy
2005-10-26 20:03:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wudsracer
Sting,
The Maxima is very good oil. It will take care of your
transmission, but I don't know about clutch action. ( The Pro clutch
gave them a lot of problems the first year.)
The Bel Ray Gearsaver works worse in the Gas Gas clutches than any
other oil that I have tried in the last 8 years (in terms of clutch
drag and notchy shifting). I have tried a lot of them.
On your Pro, use the GM purple (blue?) synthetic transmission oil.
It is what Jim Snell told me that would work best for the Gas Gas Pro
models.
Im on top of that Jim, thanks.

Well ya, they're supposedly talking about the AUTO TRAK from GM that I am,
my dad has it in his, the twin to my bike. I still liked the crystal clear
Rock Oil that my bikes previous owner gave me that he, was using when I
bought it. No idea what vis it is, of the top of my head... I sure love my
clutch on this thing... I want to find 'easy to get' variants still, just
in case the GM stuff does feel different. I spend (er well spent hours
getting my clutch exactly as I like it, do not want to have to fight that
again, most important aspect of the trials bike IMHO...)

Hell right now Im limiting my ride time so I dont have to change the oil,
until after our last 2-day regional round, in fear that it will change the
behaivior... Yeah and if I break my lever I'm gonna be Chucked, Farley,
anyway because mines been tweaked a bit LOL.

Thanks a lot for the input about Bel Ray Gear stuff, I think My buddy will
want to get the better stuff prolly from ryan young. That BelRay stuf, that
is what the guy used in that bike that he bought the bike from, but I'm
gonna pass the info to him just the same.
Ken Shackleton
2005-10-26 20:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by PlowBoy
Post by Wudsracer
Sting,
The Maxima is very good oil. It will take care of your
transmission, but I don't know about clutch action. ( The Pro clutch
gave them a lot of problems the first year.)
The Bel Ray Gearsaver works worse in the Gas Gas clutches than any
other oil that I have tried in the last 8 years (in terms of clutch
drag and notchy shifting). I have tried a lot of them.
On your Pro, use the GM purple (blue?) synthetic transmission oil.
It is what Jim Snell told me that would work best for the Gas Gas Pro
models.
Im on top of that Jim, thanks.
Well ya, they're supposedly talking about the AUTO TRAK from GM that I am,
my dad has it in his, the twin to my bike. I still liked the crystal clear
Rock Oil that my bikes previous owner gave me that he, was using when I
bought it. No idea what vis it is, of the top of my head... I sure love my
clutch on this thing... I want to find 'easy to get' variants still, just
in case the GM stuff does feel different. I spend (er well spent hours
getting my clutch exactly as I like it, do not want to have to fight that
again, most important aspect of the trials bike IMHO...)
Hell right now Im limiting my ride time so I dont have to change the oil,
until after our last 2-day regional round, in fear that it will change the
behaivior... Yeah and if I break my lever I'm gonna be Chucked, Farley,
anyway because mines been tweaked a bit LOL.
Thanks a lot for the input about Bel Ray Gear stuff, I think My buddy will
want to get the better stuff prolly from ryan young. That BelRay stuf, that
is what the guy used in that bike that he bought the bike from, but I'm
gonna pass the info to him just the same.
OK.....thanks for the input....however, I have not heard much about
ATF...has anyone used that for any length of time, and to what effect?
PlowBoy
2005-10-26 21:07:26 UTC
Permalink
What are you refering to ken? What Bikes?

Yes, I been using plain old Type F in all -- trials-- bikes I have had.
Lately I been told it is better to use Dextron 3, and most riders keeping up
at many "trials boards" been converting to Synthetic substitutes, so I do
use these synthetics in the "2004 300 pro" model ***Trails*** bike by
Gasgas now... in my sons 01 txt we're just using Dextron 3, as Snell and
others have suggested to us. Remember or know, Gasgas had problems with the
02 Pro bikes, and people using Synthetic, so last time I had to talk to
anyone at gasgas other than my parts guys, they were saying use atf is the
accepted oil, or use the 5w30, it was your choice. I keep a ear on what is
out there, all the 'good guys' doing synthetic now that gasgas has found the
bad parts in the pro models, least
it seems.

But still, Keep in mind, after the 79 Bultaco Sherpa T (I had for 20 years)
I've only owned GasGas brand, Trials (TXT & PRO) models... FWIW, Usage of
the Bul was fun riding 3 to 5 times a year when I quit riding competitively
in 83.

I rarely go faster than 20 mph for more than a mile or 2, and if that, maybe
7 times in a whole day. However the other guys that do the same, compete
where they have to do "road gear" in between sections much more than I do,
As Far As I Know, no problems. again My ONLY recent bike knowledge base is
with the GASGAS.

if you are asking about other bikes, like Sherco and Montessa (honda)? I
have No clue, and until last week I assumed they used the same oil in
tranny, but I find out the Sherco does not?

Now before the GasGas trials bikes, it was NOT just me either, it was the
"hot setup" back in the early 80's. Read this page if you are dealing with
GasGas TRIALS bikes http://www.gasgas.com/Pages/Technical/Home.html But
also consider the "dates" of the conversations taking place here, guys
talking about 95 gasgas they just bought, prolly in 95 or as late at 98?
things have changed. if you call and talk to a dealer like JIM (Wudsracer)
he'll say what they are saying now. Websites arent updated like the usnet
is...

FYI, I personally got the tip to use Type F tranny fluid in my Bultaco
Sherpa-t's from a near to pro rider. To me, It made the clutches work 10x
better, I know that, and I ended up having the bike for over 20 years
without incident with oil in gearbox being ATF. In the Sherpa-t the clutch
if it slipped at all, would fail to allow you to start the bike, and with
Thicker oils you pull the clutch and the bike was still in gear (dragging we
call it) and hard to shift especially into neutral when stopped... we didnt
do all the clutch slipping we do nowdays, especially at 'club' level, the
pro's were learning it and the tips were being leaked out ya know...

Again all I can say about it is IN MY EXPERIENCE and what I read and or find
out, YOUR MILAGE MAY VARY.
<<<<Snipped my Diatribe...>>>
OK.....thanks for the input....however, I have not heard much about
ATF...has anyone used that for any length of time, and to what effect?
Ken Shackleton
2005-10-26 21:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by PlowBoy
What are you refering to ken? What Bikes?
The bike in the header...my KX250.
Post by PlowBoy
Yes, I been using plain old Type F in all -- trials-- bikes I have had.
Lately I been told it is better to use Dextron 3, and most riders keeping up
at many "trials boards" been converting to Synthetic substitutes, so I do
use these synthetics in the "2004 300 pro" model ***Trails*** bike by
Gasgas now... in my sons 01 txt we're just using Dextron 3, as Snell and
others have suggested to us. Remember or know, Gasgas had problems with the
02 Pro bikes, and people using Synthetic, so last time I had to talk to
anyone at gasgas other than my parts guys, they were saying use atf is the
accepted oil, or use the 5w30, it was your choice. I keep a ear on what is
out there, all the 'good guys' doing synthetic now that gasgas has found the
bad parts in the pro models, least
it seems.
But still, Keep in mind, after the 79 Bultaco Sherpa T (I had for 20 years)
I've only owned GasGas brand, Trials (TXT & PRO) models... FWIW, Usage of
the Bul was fun riding 3 to 5 times a year when I quit riding competitively
in 83.
I rarely go faster than 20 mph for more than a mile or 2, and if that, maybe
7 times in a whole day. However the other guys that do the same, compete
where they have to do "road gear" in between sections much more than I do,
As Far As I Know, no problems. again My ONLY recent bike knowledge base is
with the GASGAS.
if you are asking about other bikes, like Sherco and Montessa (honda)? I
have No clue, and until last week I assumed they used the same oil in
tranny, but I find out the Sherco does not?
Now before the GasGas trials bikes, it was NOT just me either, it was the
"hot setup" back in the early 80's. Read this page if you are dealing with
GasGas TRIALS bikes http://www.gasgas.com/Pages/Technical/Home.html But
also consider the "dates" of the conversations taking place here, guys
talking about 95 gasgas they just bought, prolly in 95 or as late at 98?
things have changed. if you call and talk to a dealer like JIM (Wudsracer)
he'll say what they are saying now. Websites arent updated like the usnet
is...
FYI, I personally got the tip to use Type F tranny fluid in my Bultaco
Sherpa-t's from a near to pro rider. To me, It made the clutches work 10x
better, I know that, and I ended up having the bike for over 20 years
without incident with oil in gearbox being ATF. In the Sherpa-t the clutch
if it slipped at all, would fail to allow you to start the bike, and with
Thicker oils you pull the clutch and the bike was still in gear (dragging we
call it) and hard to shift especially into neutral when stopped... we didnt
do all the clutch slipping we do nowdays, especially at 'club' level, the
pro's were learning it and the tips were being leaked out ya know...
Again all I can say about it is IN MY EXPERIENCE and what I read and or find
out, YOUR MILAGE MAY VARY.
Thanks...my riding is trail riding....almost always below 20 mph like
yourself, and I do a fair amount of clutch slipping when going real
slow.

Sounds like Type F ATF may be a good choice.
Post by PlowBoy
<<<<Snipped my Diatribe...>>>
OK.....thanks for the input....however, I have not heard much about
ATF...has anyone used that for any length of time, and to what effect?
-keith
2005-10-27 00:15:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Shackleton
Post by PlowBoy
What are you refering to ken? What Bikes?
The bike in the header...my KX250.
Post by PlowBoy
Yes, I been using plain old Type F in all -- trials-- bikes I have had.
Lately I been told it is better to use Dextron 3,
<sniip>
Post by Ken Shackleton
Post by PlowBoy
Again all I can say about it is IN MY EXPERIENCE and what I read and or find
out, YOUR MILAGE MAY VARY.
Thanks...my riding is trail riding....almost always below 20 mph like
yourself, and I do a fair amount of clutch slipping when going real
slow.
Sounds like Type F ATF may be a good choice.
I've used it ever since, in my 97 KTM 300MXC. When we had the motor
torn down looking for an invisible *problem* (we think that a tiny
power valve-adjusting doohickey let go and went through the gears and
came out in a fine sediment of chunkiness) the insides looked
splendid. I should change it more often but I'm lazy and have several
rides on it, maybe a year...

-keith
'97 KTM300MXC, 1999 Beta Techno 250
Jeff Deeney
2005-10-27 15:19:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by -keith
Post by Ken Shackleton
Sounds like Type F ATF may be a good choice.
I've used it ever since, in my 97 KTM 300MXC.
YMMV, etc, etc, etc...

I use Dextron in my bike. Shifts fine, clutch works well.

-Jeff Deeney- DoD#0498 NCTR UTMA BRC COHVCO AMA
'99 ATK 260LQ-Stink Wheels '94 XR650L-HellSickle
We don't stop riding because we get old, we get old because we stop riding.
PlowBoy
2005-10-27 13:29:29 UTC
Permalink
Sorry I was dense, not only did I hijack the thread a bit (lol) but your are
saying you use the KX as a trials bike? No you arent you say you just ride
T R A I L S (notice the spelling).

Please dont get confused, and forgive me, as I should have emailed
Woodsracer about this, and I SHOULD NOT have brought up T R I A L S in the
dirtbike group...

TRIALs is not TRAIL. you better use gear oil or good motor oil like Jim
(woodsracer) noted.
Post by Ken Shackleton
Post by PlowBoy
What are you refering to ken? What Bikes?
The bike in the header...my KX250.
Post by PlowBoy
Yes, I been using plain old Type F in all -- trials-- bikes I have
had. Lately I been told it is better to use Dextron 3, and most
riders keeping up at many "trials boards" been converting to
Synthetic substitutes, so I do use these synthetics in the "2004 300
pro" model ***Trails*** bike by Gasgas now... in my sons 01 txt
we're just using Dextron 3, as Snell and others have suggested to
us. Remember or know, Gasgas had problems with the 02 Pro bikes,
and people using Synthetic, so last time I had to talk to anyone at
gasgas other than my parts guys, they were saying use atf is the
accepted oil, or use the 5w30, it was your choice. I keep a ear on
what is out there, all the 'good guys' doing synthetic now that
gasgas has found the bad parts in the pro models, least
it seems.
But still, Keep in mind, after the 79 Bultaco Sherpa T (I had for 20
years) I've only owned GasGas brand, Trials (TXT & PRO) models...
FWIW, Usage of the Bul was fun riding 3 to 5 times a year when I
quit riding competitively in 83.
I rarely go faster than 20 mph for more than a mile or 2, and if
that, maybe 7 times in a whole day. However the other guys that do
the same, compete where they have to do "road gear" in between
sections much more than I do, As Far As I Know, no problems. again
My ONLY recent bike knowledge base is with the GASGAS.
if you are asking about other bikes, like Sherco and Montessa
(honda)? I have No clue, and until last week I assumed they used
the same oil in tranny, but I find out the Sherco does not?
Now before the GasGas trials bikes, it was NOT just me either, it
was the "hot setup" back in the early 80's. Read this page if you
are dealing with GasGas TRIALS bikes
http://www.gasgas.com/Pages/Technical/Home.html But also consider
the "dates" of the conversations taking place here, guys talking
about 95 gasgas they just bought, prolly in 95 or as late at 98?
things have changed. if you call and talk to a dealer like JIM
(Wudsracer) he'll say what they are saying now. Websites arent
updated like the usnet is...
FYI, I personally got the tip to use Type F tranny fluid in my
Bultaco Sherpa-t's from a near to pro rider. To me, It made the
clutches work 10x better, I know that, and I ended up having the
bike for over 20 years without incident with oil in gearbox being
ATF. In the Sherpa-t the clutch if it slipped at all, would fail to
allow you to start the bike, and with Thicker oils you pull the
clutch and the bike was still in gear (dragging we call it) and hard
to shift especially into neutral when stopped... we didnt do all
the clutch slipping we do nowdays, especially at 'club' level, the
pro's were learning it and the tips were being leaked out ya know...
Again all I can say about it is IN MY EXPERIENCE and what I read and
or find out, YOUR MILAGE MAY VARY.
Thanks...my riding is trail riding....almost always below 20 mph like
yourself, and I do a fair amount of clutch slipping when going real
slow.
Sounds like Type F ATF may be a good choice.
Post by PlowBoy
<<<<Snipped my Diatribe...>>>
OK.....thanks for the input....however, I have not heard much about
ATF...has anyone used that for any length of time, and to what effect?
Ken Shackleton
2005-10-27 17:27:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by PlowBoy
Sorry I was dense, not only did I hijack the thread a bit (lol) but your are
saying you use the KX as a trials bike? No you arent you say you just ride
T R A I L S (notice the spelling).
Please dont get confused, and forgive me, as I should have emailed
Woodsracer about this, and I SHOULD NOT have brought up T R I A L S in the
dirtbike group...
TRIALs is not TRAIL. you better use gear oil or good motor oil like Jim
(woodsracer) noted.
I use my KX on trails...as in through the woods and into mudholes....up
hills and such....not trials....I said trail use so as not to be
confused with motocross use....since it is a motocross bike.
Post by PlowBoy
Post by Ken Shackleton
Post by PlowBoy
What are you refering to ken? What Bikes?
The bike in the header...my KX250.
Post by PlowBoy
Yes, I been using plain old Type F in all -- trials-- bikes I have
had. Lately I been told it is better to use Dextron 3, and most
riders keeping up at many "trials boards" been converting to
Synthetic substitutes, so I do use these synthetics in the "2004 300
pro" model ***Trails*** bike by Gasgas now... in my sons 01 txt
we're just using Dextron 3, as Snell and others have suggested to
us. Remember or know, Gasgas had problems with the 02 Pro bikes,
and people using Synthetic, so last time I had to talk to anyone at
gasgas other than my parts guys, they were saying use atf is the
accepted oil, or use the 5w30, it was your choice. I keep a ear on
what is out there, all the 'good guys' doing synthetic now that
gasgas has found the bad parts in the pro models, least
it seems.
But still, Keep in mind, after the 79 Bultaco Sherpa T (I had for 20
years) I've only owned GasGas brand, Trials (TXT & PRO) models...
FWIW, Usage of the Bul was fun riding 3 to 5 times a year when I
quit riding competitively in 83.
I rarely go faster than 20 mph for more than a mile or 2, and if
that, maybe 7 times in a whole day. However the other guys that do
the same, compete where they have to do "road gear" in between
sections much more than I do, As Far As I Know, no problems. again
My ONLY recent bike knowledge base is with the GASGAS.
if you are asking about other bikes, like Sherco and Montessa
(honda)? I have No clue, and until last week I assumed they used
the same oil in tranny, but I find out the Sherco does not?
Now before the GasGas trials bikes, it was NOT just me either, it
was the "hot setup" back in the early 80's. Read this page if you
are dealing with GasGas TRIALS bikes
http://www.gasgas.com/Pages/Technical/Home.html But also consider
the "dates" of the conversations taking place here, guys talking
about 95 gasgas they just bought, prolly in 95 or as late at 98?
things have changed. if you call and talk to a dealer like JIM
(Wudsracer) he'll say what they are saying now. Websites arent
updated like the usnet is...
FYI, I personally got the tip to use Type F tranny fluid in my
Bultaco Sherpa-t's from a near to pro rider. To me, It made the
clutches work 10x better, I know that, and I ended up having the
bike for over 20 years without incident with oil in gearbox being
ATF. In the Sherpa-t the clutch if it slipped at all, would fail to
allow you to start the bike, and with Thicker oils you pull the
clutch and the bike was still in gear (dragging we call it) and hard
to shift especially into neutral when stopped... we didnt do all
the clutch slipping we do nowdays, especially at 'club' level, the
pro's were learning it and the tips were being leaked out ya know...
Again all I can say about it is IN MY EXPERIENCE and what I read and
or find out, YOUR MILAGE MAY VARY.
Thanks...my riding is trail riding....almost always below 20 mph like
yourself, and I do a fair amount of clutch slipping when going real
slow.
Sounds like Type F ATF may be a good choice.
Post by PlowBoy
<<<<Snipped my Diatribe...>>>
OK.....thanks for the input....however, I have not heard much about
ATF...has anyone used that for any length of time, and to what effect?
PlowBoy
2005-10-27 17:55:57 UTC
Permalink
My main thing is dont let me convince you to use ATF in a dirtbike that gets
a lot different "use" than what I juse my bikes for, OK?

I think Jim advocates a good quality oil, he is very knowledgeable,
especially with dirt bikes. I'm only sort of up on one particualar model of
one brand of bike.

I just didnt want you posting back here in a week, "thanks Plow, trashed my
tranny" yadayada.
Post by Ken Shackleton
Post by PlowBoy
Sorry I was dense, not only did I hijack the thread a bit (lol) but
your are saying you use the KX as a trials bike? No you arent you
say you just ride T R A I L S (notice the spelling).
Please dont get confused, and forgive me, as I should have emailed
Woodsracer about this, and I SHOULD NOT have brought up T R I A L S
in the dirtbike group...
TRIALs is not TRAIL. you better use gear oil or good motor oil like
Jim (woodsracer) noted.
I use my KX on trails...as in through the woods and into
mudholes....up hills and such....not trials....I said trail use so as
not to be confused with motocross use....since it is a motocross bike.
Post by PlowBoy
Post by Ken Shackleton
Post by PlowBoy
What are you refering to ken? What Bikes?
The bike in the header...my KX250.
Post by PlowBoy
Yes, I been using plain old Type F in all -- trials-- bikes I have
had. Lately I been told it is better to use Dextron 3, and most
riders keeping up at many "trials boards" been converting to
Synthetic substitutes, so I do use these synthetics in the "2004
300 pro" model ***Trails*** bike by Gasgas now... in my sons 01
txt we're just using Dextron 3, as Snell and others have suggested
to us. Remember or know, Gasgas had problems with the 02 Pro
bikes, and people using Synthetic, so last time I had to talk to
anyone at gasgas other than my parts guys, they were saying use
atf is the accepted oil, or use the 5w30, it was your choice. I
keep a ear on what is out there, all the 'good guys' doing
synthetic now that gasgas has found the bad parts in the pro
models, least
it seems.
But still, Keep in mind, after the 79 Bultaco Sherpa T (I had for
20 years) I've only owned GasGas brand, Trials (TXT & PRO)
models... FWIW, Usage of the Bul was fun riding 3 to 5 times a
year when I quit riding competitively in 83.
I rarely go faster than 20 mph for more than a mile or 2, and if
that, maybe 7 times in a whole day. However the other guys that do
the same, compete where they have to do "road gear" in between
sections much more than I do, As Far As I Know, no problems. again
My ONLY recent bike knowledge base is with the GASGAS.
if you are asking about other bikes, like Sherco and Montessa
(honda)? I have No clue, and until last week I assumed they used
the same oil in tranny, but I find out the Sherco does not?
Now before the GasGas trials bikes, it was NOT just me either, it
was the "hot setup" back in the early 80's. Read this page if you
are dealing with GasGas TRIALS bikes
http://www.gasgas.com/Pages/Technical/Home.html But also consider
the "dates" of the conversations taking place here, guys talking
about 95 gasgas they just bought, prolly in 95 or as late at 98?
things have changed. if you call and talk to a dealer like JIM
(Wudsracer) he'll say what they are saying now. Websites arent
updated like the usnet is...
FYI, I personally got the tip to use Type F tranny fluid in my
Bultaco Sherpa-t's from a near to pro rider. To me, It made the
clutches work 10x better, I know that, and I ended up having the
bike for over 20 years without incident with oil in gearbox being
ATF. In the Sherpa-t the clutch if it slipped at all, would fail
to allow you to start the bike, and with Thicker oils you pull the
clutch and the bike was still in gear (dragging we call it) and
hard to shift especially into neutral when stopped... we didnt do
all the clutch slipping we do nowdays, especially at 'club' level,
the pro's were learning it and the tips were being leaked out ya
know...
Again all I can say about it is IN MY EXPERIENCE and what I read
and or find out, YOUR MILAGE MAY VARY.
Thanks...my riding is trail riding....almost always below 20 mph
like yourself, and I do a fair amount of clutch slipping when going
real slow.
Sounds like Type F ATF may be a good choice.
Post by PlowBoy
<<<<Snipped my Diatribe...>>>
OK.....thanks for the input....however, I have not heard much
about ATF...has anyone used that for any length of time, and to
what effect?
Ken Shackleton
2005-10-27 18:51:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by PlowBoy
My main thing is dont let me convince you to use ATF in a dirtbike that gets
a lot different "use" than what I juse my bikes for, OK?
I think Jim advocates a good quality oil, he is very knowledgeable,
especially with dirt bikes. I'm only sort of up on one particualar model of
one brand of bike.
I just didnt want you posting back here in a week, "thanks Plow, trashed my
tranny" yadayada.
No problem there....I am using Mobil 1 right now....I will stay with
that until its all gone. If I did use ATF, I would certainly change it
as often as I change oil now [every second trip], and keep a close eye
on how things operate. I am looking for two qualities that are often
mutually exclusive.....high quality....and cheap!
Post by PlowBoy
Post by Ken Shackleton
Post by PlowBoy
Sorry I was dense, not only did I hijack the thread a bit (lol) but
your are saying you use the KX as a trials bike? No you arent you
say you just ride T R A I L S (notice the spelling).
Please dont get confused, and forgive me, as I should have emailed
Woodsracer about this, and I SHOULD NOT have brought up T R I A L S
in the dirtbike group...
TRIALs is not TRAIL. you better use gear oil or good motor oil like
Jim (woodsracer) noted.
I use my KX on trails...as in through the woods and into
mudholes....up hills and such....not trials....I said trail use so as
not to be confused with motocross use....since it is a motocross bike.
Post by PlowBoy
Post by Ken Shackleton
Post by PlowBoy
What are you refering to ken? What Bikes?
The bike in the header...my KX250.
Post by PlowBoy
Yes, I been using plain old Type F in all -- trials-- bikes I have
had. Lately I been told it is better to use Dextron 3, and most
riders keeping up at many "trials boards" been converting to
Synthetic substitutes, so I do use these synthetics in the "2004
300 pro" model ***Trails*** bike by Gasgas now... in my sons 01
txt we're just using Dextron 3, as Snell and others have suggested
to us. Remember or know, Gasgas had problems with the 02 Pro
bikes, and people using Synthetic, so last time I had to talk to
anyone at gasgas other than my parts guys, they were saying use
atf is the accepted oil, or use the 5w30, it was your choice. I
keep a ear on what is out there, all the 'good guys' doing
synthetic now that gasgas has found the bad parts in the pro
models, least
it seems.
But still, Keep in mind, after the 79 Bultaco Sherpa T (I had for
20 years) I've only owned GasGas brand, Trials (TXT & PRO)
models... FWIW, Usage of the Bul was fun riding 3 to 5 times a
year when I quit riding competitively in 83.
I rarely go faster than 20 mph for more than a mile or 2, and if
that, maybe 7 times in a whole day. However the other guys that do
the same, compete where they have to do "road gear" in between
sections much more than I do, As Far As I Know, no problems. again
My ONLY recent bike knowledge base is with the GASGAS.
if you are asking about other bikes, like Sherco and Montessa
(honda)? I have No clue, and until last week I assumed they used
the same oil in tranny, but I find out the Sherco does not?
Now before the GasGas trials bikes, it was NOT just me either, it
was the "hot setup" back in the early 80's. Read this page if you
are dealing with GasGas TRIALS bikes
http://www.gasgas.com/Pages/Technical/Home.html But also consider
the "dates" of the conversations taking place here, guys talking
about 95 gasgas they just bought, prolly in 95 or as late at 98?
things have changed. if you call and talk to a dealer like JIM
(Wudsracer) he'll say what they are saying now. Websites arent
updated like the usnet is...
FYI, I personally got the tip to use Type F tranny fluid in my
Bultaco Sherpa-t's from a near to pro rider. To me, It made the
clutches work 10x better, I know that, and I ended up having the
bike for over 20 years without incident with oil in gearbox being
ATF. In the Sherpa-t the clutch if it slipped at all, would fail
to allow you to start the bike, and with Thicker oils you pull the
clutch and the bike was still in gear (dragging we call it) and
hard to shift especially into neutral when stopped... we didnt do
all the clutch slipping we do nowdays, especially at 'club' level,
the pro's were learning it and the tips were being leaked out ya
know...
Again all I can say about it is IN MY EXPERIENCE and what I read
and or find out, YOUR MILAGE MAY VARY.
Thanks...my riding is trail riding....almost always below 20 mph
like yourself, and I do a fair amount of clutch slipping when going
real slow.
Sounds like Type F ATF may be a good choice.
Post by PlowBoy
<<<<Snipped my Diatribe...>>>
OK.....thanks for the input....however, I have not heard much
about ATF...has anyone used that for any length of time, and to
what effect?
MX Tuner
2005-10-27 22:18:35 UTC
Permalink
On 27 Oct 2005 11:51:13 -0700, "Ken Shackleton"
Post by Ken Shackleton
Post by PlowBoy
I just didnt want you posting back here in a week, "thanks Plow, trashed my
tranny" yadayada.
No problem there....I am using Mobil 1 right now....I will stay with
that until its all gone. If I did use ATF, I would certainly change it
as often as I change oil now [every second trip], and keep a close eye
on how things operate. I am looking for two qualities that are often
mutually exclusive.....high quality....and cheap!
Type F works extremely well, especially in a KX trans. Normally, the
clutch works extremely well with the Type F.

MX Tuner
-keith
2005-10-27 23:35:08 UTC
Permalink
On 27 Oct 2005 11:51:13 -0700, "Ken Shackleton"
Post by Ken Shackleton
No problem there....I am using Mobil 1 right now....I will stay with
that until its all gone. If I did use ATF, I would certainly change it
as often as I change oil now [every second trip], and keep a close eye
on how things operate. I am looking for two qualities that are often
mutually exclusive.....high quality....and cheap!
Think you hit the nail on the head with frequency of change.
That high-frequency means that ATF shouldn't be detrimental, and
affordable besides.
My reason anyhow, except for the frequency bit, it started out with
all good intentions...

-k
'97 KTM300MXC, 1999 Beta Techno 250
PlowBoy
2005-10-27 13:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Hey Jim,

here is a link you will want (if you deal with trials bikes much or ever)
http://www.gasgasmuseum.com/PDFs/Clutch/Clutch-Bulletin-Jan04.pdf
Post by PlowBoy
Post by Wudsracer
Sting,
The Maxima is very good oil. It will take care of your
transmission, but I don't know about clutch action. ( The Pro clutch
gave them a lot of problems the first year.)
The Bel Ray Gearsaver works worse in the Gas Gas clutches than any
other oil that I have tried in the last 8 years (in terms of clutch
drag and notchy shifting). I have tried a lot of them.
On your Pro, use the GM purple (blue?) synthetic transmission oil.
It is what Jim Snell told me that would work best for the Gas Gas Pro
models.
Im on top of that Jim, thanks.
Well ya, they're supposedly talking about the AUTO TRAK from GM that
I am, my dad has it in his, the twin to my bike. I still liked the
crystal clear Rock Oil that my bikes previous owner gave me that he,
was using when I bought it. No idea what vis it is, of the top of my
head... I sure love my clutch on this thing... I want to find 'easy
to get' variants still, just in case the GM stuff does feel
different. I spend (er well spent hours getting my clutch exactly as
I like it, do not want to have to fight that again, most important
aspect of the trials bike IMHO...)
Hell right now Im limiting my ride time so I dont have to change the
oil, until after our last 2-day regional round, in fear that it will
change the behaivior... Yeah and if I break my lever I'm gonna be
Chucked, Farley, anyway because mines been tweaked a bit LOL.
Thanks a lot for the input about Bel Ray Gear stuff, I think My buddy
will want to get the better stuff prolly from ryan young. That
BelRay stuf, that is what the guy used in that bike that he bought
the bike from, but I'm gonna pass the info to him just the same.
Mike W.
2005-10-27 04:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Shackleton
Hello All;
I realize that any comment on oil will cause a wide variety of
resonses.....however...
I have a 2001 KX250 and I was wondering if you all use motor oil in the
gearbox as specified by Kawasaki? Has anyone had problems and are there
alternatives?
Auto v. motorcycle?
Synthetic?
ATF?
Thanks
I spent a bunch of time thinking about oil... First, with my XR, I was
willing to put the best stuff I could find but the prevailing judgement was
just use a rated oil and change frequently. I would change maybe every 150
to 200 miles. At that stage, I was using motorcycle oils.. specifically
BelRay. Run something cheap but properly rated, and change it often was the
order of the day.

Since that time, the primary engine I worry about now is 1000cc and I had
some new considerations to factor in. I'm on the clutch a LOT. Way way way
more than you can imagine. And I go slow... stupid slow. I noticed engine
heat and degraded clutch feel were indeed issues. I read everything I could
find and came to the conclusion there was no reason to buy a
motorcycle-specific oil. I could not locate a single public piece of
research that rationally justified the higher expense. Personally, I
consider it a high-profit-margin product that only exists because people
will use it. But I realize others might disagree. I tried lots of oils,
including a few MC oils but I have settled on Mobil1 15W50 which is not an
"energy conserving" oil... a class of oil known to cause clutch issues with
some bikes. I like that my engine is probably running 10-20 deg cooler
because of the synthetic.. which I don't think you need. And I *love* the
clutch feel.... nothing else gets close in that bike.

So you could run the expensive stuff but I don't think you have the same
issues to address I do now. Cheap stuff changed frequently would be my rule
for your usage model. I wouldn't limit myself to an MC-specific oil either,
but that's me... check into that for yourself. I'd probably run ATF... I've
heard lots of good stuff about it and no bad, that I can recall.

Good luck,
Mike


--
Mike W.
96 XR400
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)
99 KZ1000P
Wudsracer
2005-10-27 13:55:27 UTC
Permalink
*************************************************************
Post by Mike W.
I spent a bunch of time thinking about oil... First, with my XR, I was
willing to put the best stuff I could find but the prevailing judgement was
just use a rated oil and change frequently. I would change maybe every 150
to 200 miles. At that stage, I was using motorcycle oils.. specifically
BelRay. Run something cheap but properly rated, and change it often was the
order of the day.
Since that time, the primary engine I worry about now is 1000cc and I had
some new considerations to factor in. I'm on the clutch a LOT. Way way way
more than you can imagine. And I go slow... stupid slow. I noticed engine
heat and degraded clutch feel were indeed issues. I read everything I could
find and came to the conclusion there was no reason to buy a
motorcycle-specific oil. I could not locate a single public piece of
research that rationally justified the higher expense. Personally, I
consider it a high-profit-margin product that only exists because people
will use it. But I realize others might disagree. I tried lots of oils,
including a few MC oils but I have settled on Mobil1 15W50 which is not an
"energy conserving" oil... a class of oil known to cause clutch issues with
some bikes. I like that my engine is probably running 10-20 deg cooler
because of the synthetic.. which I don't think you need. And I *love* the
clutch feel.... nothing else gets close in that bike.
So you could run the expensive stuff but I don't think you have the same
issues to address I do now. Cheap stuff changed frequently would be my rule
for your usage model. I wouldn't limit myself to an MC-specific oil either,
but that's me... check into that for yourself. I'd probably run ATF... I've
heard lots of good stuff about it and no bad, that I can recall.
Good luck,
Mike
************************************************************

Mike,
Ken's oil for his KX will strictly be used for his transmission.
(stated sole for clarification purposes) I think BelRay makes some
fine products, but that their Gearsaver doesn't do well in Gas Gas
transmissions.

What really prompts me to respond to your post is this:
When Josh & I raced a couple of DR350, I tried every conventional oil
at the local auto parts store. There was a tremendous difference in
the performance of different oils.
What prompted my "oil search" was that, by the gas stop at the
enduros, Josh's oil would already be turning black, and by the end of
an enduro, it would already be losing lubricity. (He would stay
"throttle pinned" most of the race.) On my bike, the oil would be
turning black by the end of the enduro, and would be losing lubricity
you the end of the second ride. We were using Texaco 10w40.
This amazed me, as I had always thought that Texaco was a "premium"
oil, and could "take it" better than that.
Then, as we got more familiar with the bikes (and had Scott's
Performance modify our suspensions), this oil degradation accelerated
with our increased "engine abuse".

As we tried different oils, we found that, of the available
selections (Penzoil, Quaker State, Valvoline, RockHill, Castrol, etc,
but Mobil wasn't available in our auto parts store. ), we found that
their only oils that would still have full lubricity at the end of
Josh's enduro were the Valvoline and Castrol 20w50. There was no
appreciable difference between the Castrol and the Valvoline oils.
Now, even though these two were the best conventional oils that our
"Bumper to Bumper" parts store carried, their 10w40 was toast by the
end of Josh's enduro, and very dark by the end of my enduro.
If we used their 20w50, the oil would be good for Josh's whole race,
but turning dark by the end, and I could get two races on the same oil
change.
I think the difference in the Valvoline and Castrol performance,
versus the rest of the available conventional oils is the bright stock
that is the base oil used in the blending process.

I agree about the Mobil 15w50 being a very good oil.
I think that everyone should try different oils to see what works
best in their application.

The only Gas Gas EC engine I have taken apart, that had really hard
wear on the parts inside, had been running Type F atf in the
transmission.
I had used type F atf before (quite a bit in the past), and really
liked the shifting and clutch action, but after seeing this
particular engine's transmission and clutch parts, I no longer
recommend it for two stroke gearboxes.

<end of early morning ramblings>

May you have a great day.



Smackover Racing
Gas Gas DE300
Team LAGNAF
www.smackovermotorsports.com
sturd
2005-10-27 13:33:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wudsracer
we found that
their only oils that would still have full lubricity at the end of
Josh's enduro were the Valvoline and Castrol 20w50
How did you measure lubricity?


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.
Wudsracer
2005-10-27 15:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by sturd
Post by Wudsracer
we found that
their only oils that would still have full lubricity at the end of
Josh's enduro were the Valvoline and Castrol 20w50
How did you measure lubricity?
Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.
Being a product of the oil field, I used the SOP method, which
involves putting the oil on a thumbnail and squeezing/rubbing it with
my index finger.
Slick is slick.
Not slick is not slick.
No numbers are involved, but one can definitely get a direct
comparison between two samples this way.


Smackover Racing
Gas Gas DE300
Team LAGNAF
www.smackovermotorsports.com
spodely
2005-10-27 15:22:54 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:17:09 GMT, Wudsracer
Post by Wudsracer
Being a product of the oil field, I used the SOP method, which
involves putting the oil on a thumbnail and squeezing/rubbing it with
my index finger.
Slick is slick.
Not slick is not slick.
No numbers are involved, but one can definitely get a direct
comparison between two samples this way.
Smackover Racing
Gas Gas DE300
Team LAGNAF
www.smackovermotorsports.com
<sigh> Them city fellers. Gotta learn em everything.

slick Spodey
IdaSpode
2005-10-27 15:34:21 UTC
Permalink
On 27 Oct 2005 06:33:03 -0700, "sturd" <***@hotmail.com>
wrote:

<snip>
Post by sturd
How did you measure lubricity?
If you don't have to spit on it, the receptacle is sufficiently
lubricated.
Post by sturd
Go fast.
Go slow, have fun...
Post by sturd
Mike S.
David - 05 KTM 200EXC
djones<at>LSidaho.com
http://www.spodefest.net/rmd
http://www.spodefest.net/forum
Mike W.
2005-10-30 14:46:27 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:55:27 GMT, Wudsracer
Post by Wudsracer
Mike,
Ken's oil for his KX will strictly be used for his transmission.
(stated sole for clarification purposes) I think BelRay makes some
fine products, but that their Gearsaver doesn't do well in Gas Gas
transmissions.
After seeing what has worked really well in the XR but not in the KZP, I
can accept easily that you "the right oil" depends on the bike and the
mission.
Post by Wudsracer
As we tried different oils, we found that, of the available
selections (Penzoil, Quaker State, Valvoline, RockHill, Castrol, etc,
but Mobil wasn't available in our auto parts store. ), we found that
their only oils that would still have full lubricity at the end of
Josh's enduro were the Valvoline and Castrol 20w50. There was no
appreciable difference between the Castrol and the Valvoline oils.
Now, even though these two were the best conventional oils that our
"Bumper to Bumper" parts store carried, their 10w40 was toast by the
end of Josh's enduro, and very dark by the end of my enduro.
If we used their 20w50, the oil would be good for Josh's whole race,
but turning dark by the end, and I could get two races on the same oil
change.
If mission is indeed one of the decision variables, it sounds like you have
a test that is about as good as you'll get without going to
instrumentation. For me, I will assume I'm running a cooler engine... but
the big determinant was clutch feel.. and to a significantly lesser extent,
shifting ease which was also outstanding with the Mobil. The worst clutch
feel came from the stuff that felt best in the XR.

The only downside has been significant seepage from the seals but that was
a known going in. The engine is retaining its youth and the clutch is about
as perfect as perfect can be.
Post by Wudsracer
I think the difference in the Valvoline and Castrol performance,
versus the rest of the available conventional oils is the bright stock
that is the base oil used in the blending process.
What is bright stock? Anyone that has spent significant time on whatever
that board is called at the top of an oil well has full credibility with me
to answer this:)
Post by Wudsracer
I agree about the Mobil 15w50 being a very good oil.
I think that everyone should try different oils to see what works
best in their application.
The only Gas Gas EC engine I have taken apart, that had really hard
wear on the parts inside, had been running Type F atf in the
transmission.
I had used type F atf before (quite a bit in the past), and really
liked the shifting and clutch action, but after seeing this
particular engine's transmission and clutch parts, I no longer
recommend it for two stroke gearboxes.
One other element one might want to add to this? GG riders ride one way...
I ride another.. I'm slow and unaggressive. Further, maybe lots of XR
riders don't push as hard as GG guys. Maybe the mission is different for
these two groups, statistically speaking.
Post by Wudsracer
<end of early morning ramblings>
May you have a great day.
And you... me, 5 gal of gas, a 12hp leaf blower and 6 metric tons of
leaves... I wouldn't want to bet on the leaves.

Thanks Jim,
M


--
Mike W.
96 XR400
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)
99 KZ1000P
john
2005-10-31 13:36:55 UTC
Permalink
"Mike W." <o
Post by Mike W.
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:55:27 GMT, Wudsracer
Post by Wudsracer
Mike,
Ken's oil for his KX will strictly be used for his transmission.
(stated sole for clarification purposes) I think BelRay makes some
fine products, but that their Gearsaver doesn't do well in Gas Gas
transmissions.
After seeing what has worked really well in the XR but not in the KZP, I
can accept easily that you "the right oil" depends on the bike and the
mission.
Mobil synt worked well in the xr600 & the gas gas
i've switched to rotella synthetic and works nice.
i tried the mobil 0-40 and wasn't impressed, i think
they were aiming at the cold weather starts... i though
it would give me a buttery clutch, nope still have to warm
up the gas gas a bit before the slow stuff....
i used castrol, & pensoil the most prior to this like the price
of pensoil & the smell of castrol..
Post by Mike W.
The only downside has been significant seepage from the seals but that was
a known going in. The engine is retaining its youth and the clutch is about
as perfect as perfect can be.
<are you talking like gordon retain his youth>
Post by Mike W.
Post by Wudsracer
I think the difference in the Valvoline and Castrol performance,
versus the rest of the available conventional oils is the bright stock
that is the base oil used in the blending process.
What is bright stock? Anyone that has spent significant time on whatever
that board is called at the top of an oil well has full credibility with me
to answer this:)
bright stock is those shiney rocks you keep in your
tool box for when you forget some holiday and
have to toss them to the wife to make her happy about
you spending a small fortune on a hobbie that takes
you out of her site
Post by Mike W.
One other element one might want to add to this? GG riders ride one way...
I ride another.. I'm slow and unaggressive. Further, maybe lots of XR
riders don't push as hard as GG guys. Maybe the mission is different for
these two groups, statistically speaking.
i don't see the same experation date schedual as the previous gas gas
rider...
yes you can tracktor around on a gas gas then have the option to
blow by an xr..
Post by Mike W.
Post by Wudsracer
<end of early morning ramblings>
May you have a great day.
And you... me, 5 gal of gas, a 12hp leaf blower and 6 metric tons of
leaves... I wouldn't want to bet on the leaves.
Thanks Jim,
M
john
i'm breaking out the 150hp leaf blower this weekend
1/2 throttle raise the tail then ease up on the right brake
& rotate 360, tada front yard done.....



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Mike W.
2005-11-02 03:03:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by john
Post by Mike W.
as perfect as perfect can be.
<are you talking like gordon retain his youth>
Based on his emails recently, even his mouth needs a walker. He's pretty
old you know.


--
Mike W.
96 XR400
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)
99 KZ1000P
Wudsracer
2005-10-31 15:03:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike W.
What is bright stock? Anyone that has spent significant time on whatever
that board is called at the top of an oil well has full credibility with me
to answer this:)
Bright stock is the base oil used for blending. (Example: for 10w40,
the bright stock is a 10 wt oil, to which polymers are used to alter
the viscosity at higher temperatures, which give it the
characteristics and viscosity of 40 wt oil at running temperature.
Post by Mike W.
Post by Wudsracer
I agree about the Mobil 15w50 being a very good oil.
I think that everyone should try different oils to see what works
best in their application.
The only Gas Gas EC engine I have taken apart, that had really hard
wear on the parts inside, had been running Type F atf in the
transmission.
I had used type F atf before (quite a bit in the past), and really
liked the shifting and clutch action, but after seeing this
particular engine's transmission and clutch parts, I no longer
recommend it for two stroke gearboxes.
One other element one might want to add to this? GG riders ride one way...
I ride another.. I'm slow and unaggressive. Further, maybe lots of XR
riders don't push as hard as GG guys. Maybe the mission is different for
these two groups, statistically speaking.
Gas Gas clutches have closer tolerances than most other brands.
(clutch friction plates that are 2.7 mm thick, as opposed to a CR250
which has 3 mm thick friction plates.) This demands a relatively light
viscosity transmission/clutch lubricant with good shear strength.
Post by Mike W.
Thanks Jim,
M
Mostly, I worked derricks in the oil field service crews, and (after
someone caught me laying down to take a dump, thus proving that I was
lazy enough to be a "pumper") later as a pumper, or caretaker of
producing stripper wells (secondary production wells of less than 10
barrels of oil per day yield).

To see a service rig similar to what I worked on, click on this link.:
Loading Image...
this rig has a 94' mast similar to the first rig on which I worked.
I worked on the two suspended platforms up on the mast. The rig I
worked on had the lower platform (tubing rack/tubing board) at 50 feet
up and the upper platform (rod hanger/rod board) at 70 feet up.
Actually, as my father was a well service contractor, I started
working around the older style stationary 112' standard derricks at an
early age (on weekends), and was working the "tubing board" at the age
of 13, and the "rod board" at the age of 15. (OSHA regulations for age
don't always apply to family members. )
Most of the old standard stationary derricks are now a thing of the
past, as it is easier to control safety aspects of equipment with the
newer style mobile service rigs.

This photo show a pulling unit with rods hanging from and the tubing
stacked in the mast during a service job.
http://www.accellwellservice.com/rig6.html

This presentation shows a very modern well service rig in action,
including the derrick hand doing his thing for a bit.
http://www.savannaenergy.com/corpinfo/savdvd/greatplains.asp

(with more information than most want to know.)

You are very welcome.
Jim Cook

Smackover Racing
Gas Gas DE300
Team LAGNAF
www.smackovermotorsports.com
Mike W.
2005-11-02 03:12:49 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 15:03:14 GMT, Wudsracer
Post by Wudsracer
Mostly, I worked derricks in the oil field service crews, and (after
someone caught me laying down to take a dump, thus proving that I was
lazy enough to be a "pumper") later as a pumper, or caretaker of
producing stripper wells (secondary production wells of less than 10
barrels of oil per day yield).
http://www.independentwellservicing.com/photo/photo.php?file=/New_Trucks/rig_1/_res/res_P1010016.JPG
this rig has a 94' mast similar to the first rig on which I worked.
I worked on the two suspended platforms up on the mast. The rig I
worked on had the lower platform (tubing rack/tubing board) at 50 feet
up and the upper platform (rod hanger/rod board) at 70 feet up.
Actually, as my father was a well service contractor, I started
working around the older style stationary 112' standard derricks at an
early age (on weekends), and was working the "tubing board" at the age
of 13, and the "rod board" at the age of 15. (OSHA regulations for age
don't always apply to family members. )
Most of the old standard stationary derricks are now a thing of the
past, as it is easier to control safety aspects of equipment with the
newer style mobile service rigs.
This photo show a pulling unit with rods hanging from and the tubing
stacked in the mast during a service job.
http://www.accellwellservice.com/rig6.html
This presentation shows a very modern well service rig in action,
including the derrick hand doing his thing for a bit.
http://www.savannaenergy.com/corpinfo/savdvd/greatplains.asp
(with more information than most want to know.)
Jim... that was *fascinating*. One question... so you go up on that
platform. What the hell do you do up there? What is all this gear being
used to do? It doesn't seem like it's the drilling gear. It seems like it's
some kind of service gear.

As the laying down, don't forget that time I moved my leg at the petting
zoo and got "gored by the zebu" at the state fair... and the dude running
the petting zoo fame running up and said "Hey mister... don't say 'gored'.
That thing doesn't even stand up to take a shit".

Mike


--
Mike W.
96 XR400
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)
99 KZ1000P
Wudsracer
2005-11-02 06:40:26 UTC
Permalink
This is only on topic because we use petroleum products in the
operation of our motorcycles. If you are not interested in the history
of the domestic oil field and related explanations, go to the next
post. This is a long one.

Jim
Post by Mike W.
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 15:03:14 GMT, Wudsracer
Post by Wudsracer
Mostly, I worked derricks in the oil field service crews, and (after
someone caught me laying down to take a dump, thus proving that I was
lazy enough to be a "pumper") later as a pumper, or caretaker of
producing stripper wells (secondary production wells of less than 10
barrels of oil per day yield).
http://www.independentwellservicing.com/photo/photo.php?file=/New_Trucks/rig_1/_res/res_P1010016.JPG
this rig has a 94' mast similar to the first rig on which I worked.
I worked on the two suspended platforms up on the mast. The rig I
worked on had the lower platform (tubing rack/tubing board) at 50 feet
up and the upper platform (rod hanger/rod board) at 70 feet up.
Actually, as my father was a well service contractor, I started
working around the older style stationary 112' standard derricks at an
early age (on weekends), and was working the "tubing board" at the age
of 13, and the "rod board" at the age of 15. (OSHA regulations for age
don't always apply to family members. )
Most of the old standard stationary derricks are now a thing of the
past, as it is easier to control safety aspects of equipment with the
newer style mobile service rigs.
This photo show a pulling unit with rods hanging from and the tubing
stacked in the mast during a service job.
http://www.accellwellservice.com/rig6.html
This presentation shows a very modern well service rig in action,
including the derrick hand doing his thing for a bit.
http://www.savannaenergy.com/corpinfo/savdvd/greatplains.asp
(with more information than most want to know.)
Jim... that was *fascinating*. One question... so you go up on that
platform. What the hell do you do up there? What is all this gear being
used to do? It doesn't seem like it's the drilling gear. It seems like it's
some kind of service gear.
As the laying down, don't forget that time I moved my leg at the petting
zoo and got "gored by the zebu" at the state fair... and the dude running
the petting zoo fame running up and said "Hey mister... don't say 'gored'.
That thing doesn't even stand up to take a shit".
Mike
Start of new part:
Mike,
I see that you understand the joke about how one becomes a pumper.
That is an old joke fostered by jealous pulling/service rig crew
personnel.

<preamble to a ramble>
I actually started working in the oil field as early as age 6, washing
tools with condensate/drip gasoline while the crew worked servicing a
well. At the age of 7, I started "tailing rods". (grabbing the rods to
be laid onto ties, instead of hanging them in the derrick, and running
the length of the rod to keep it off the ground and guiding it onto
the rack set up for that purpose.
Other than that, I paid for all my "teenage motorcycles" by painting
oil storage/stock tanks (by hand with a brush) and clearing right of
ways (with a sling blade and kaiser blade). At the age of 10, in the
6th grade, after school, I would ride my Cushman out to the oil field
and work in the afternoons and on Saturdays.
As I got older and larger, I started working on the pulling crew on
Saturdays, when they pulled/serviced wells that belonged to the
family. (Stripper wells that produced oil for which we were paid
$3.50 per 42 gallon barrel.) Dad would run the machine, I would
wrench rods, and an older "pick-up hand" would work derricks.
At the age of thirteen, I was still to small to wrench pipe with a
pair of chain tongs, but stout enough to handle the pipe in the
derrick; so dad would have me wrench the rods and then climb the
derrick to work the tubing board while he and the extra hand would
wrench the pipe by hand, with chain tongs and a cheater pipe. (Dad
also running the rig.)
At the age of 15, I worked my first rod board. After that, most of
my rig work was up in the derricks, since a lot of workers were scared
of heights. I loved being up there.

I still remember that first day. The derrick was a standard
stationary angle iron derrick, and an old one at that. Instead of a
welded together pipe and expanded metal platform to work from, it had
a rough cut 2x12 to stand on while working up there. I climbed up the
70 feet to the rod board, and to my dismay, saw a crack running the
length of the rod board.
I yelled down to Dad,"Dad, There's a crack running the length of this
2x12!"
He yelled back up," That's why you have that safety harness on. Don't
forget to tie it to the derrick leg.!"
"OK, Dad", and I crawled out on the board and attached the safety
harness's chain to the derrick leg. After a while, I was so busy
working that I forgot to be scared.... and, the board didn't break.

If you have you got a few more minutes, I'll bend your ears a bit.

First, a word of explanation.
The type of wells that I worked with on a service rig, are pumping
wells, with the easily recognized pumping unit
Loading Image...
lifting the fluid by means of:
1. tubing (pipe) hanging from the casing head down into the well bore,
with a check valve on bottom.
2. "sucker rods" hang from the pumping unit down into the tubing. At
the bottom of the string of rods, there is a pump/"plunger" that seals
to the inside of the bottom of the pipe, in a special precision bore
joint of pipe called a "working barrel". When the rods lift up, they
carry a volume of fluid corresponding to the inside bore of the
working barrel. This is lifted the length of the pumping unit's
stroke.
When the pumping unit lowers the string of rods, a check
valve/standing valve (alloy steel ball and alloy ring "seat") in the
bottom of the working barrel closes. The ball and seat at the bottom
of the traveling valve (the plunger at the bottom of the string of
rods) opens and lets the well's fluid, that is now trapped in the
working barrel, inside the hollow plunger and through another ball and
seat check valve, leaving the fluid above the plunger, which lifts it
up the tubing on the pumping unit's upstroke. As it lifts the fluid
above the plunger, the pressure from the column of fluid in the well
bore opens the ball and seat in the standing valve and floods the area
in the working barrel below the traveling valve. Repeat the process
24 hours per day and 7 days per week. You now know how the pumping
oil well works.
This is the same basic method of lifting fluids out of a well bore
ever since windmills were used.
The wells that I worked/work on are from 1,500 to 5,000 feet deep
(about 2,500' is the average), with a great deal of pressure involved
down hole. As a result of friction and stress, sometimes the sucker
rods break or wear out, the pipe will get a hole in it, and the down
hole pumping equipment will need replacing/servicing. The current fee
for a well service rig and crew runs about $140 to $200 per hour, with
a 4 hour minimum. When my dad was in business servicing wells (they
sold the pulling equipment around 1967), the going rate was about $18
per hour, no minimum. Working under a standard derrick, they would
complete 4 rod jobs or 2 tubing jobs in the average day.

When wells are serviced, first the sucker rods and traveling valve
are pulled out of the hole, and hung in the derrick. Then the tubing
is pulled out of the hole and stacked back (leaned into the side) of
the derrick. On smaller rigs, the rods are pulled in doubles (25' long
each x two), and the pipe is pulled in singles (approximately 30'
long). On larger rigs, the rods are pulled in triples and the pipe is
pulled in doubles.

In the derrick of the service rig:
On the top platform/rod board, I transferred the rods from the
machine's rod elevator to a small swiveling rod holding tool on a
block and line and, after the rod was unscrewed, I transferred the rod
to a "rod hanger", where it stayed until the equipment was put back
into the well. Then, I lifted the rods and suspended them while they
were screwed back together, and then transferred them back to the
rig's pulley and rod elevator.

On the lower platform/tubing board, after the pipe was unscrewed and
set at a designated spot on the ground, I would unlatch the elevators
as the block traveled down, and guide/lean the now free stands of
pipe against the side of the tubing board. Going back into the hole, I
would lean the pipe back out over the hole and latch the pipe
elevators around the pipe as the rig operator raised the block and
tubing elevator past me.
There was a good bit more involved in what I did up there, but this is
the "short version", so the given explanation will have to suffice for
now.

I will say one more thing, without prompting: The "floor crew" didn't
like it when the derrick hand takes a piss from 70 feet up. <G>

The class pumping units of the industry are built in Lufkin, Texas, by
Lufkin Industries. Some of the pumping units that I look after have
been in continuous service for over 50 years.
Here's more on different styles of pumping units:
http://www.lufkin.com/oilfield/index.html

Smackover's oil field has been in production since 1922, and is now
mostly stripper wells. In 1925 Smackover had the world's largest known
reserve of crude oil, with over 77,000,000 barrels of oil produced in
Smackover during that year.
Due to inefficient production and drilling techniques, much of the
crude was left in the reservoirs underground, as the escaping gas from
the freshly tapped pockets underground produced huge storybook gushers
that sprayed oil twice the height of the drilling derricks, and caused
craters and fires.
One of these is close to where I live & work. When the well quit
blowing out and the fire was extinguished several weeks later, it left
a hole some 100 feet deep and 200 yards across.

However, because of those same inefficient techniques, the stripper
wells (less than 10 bpd each) will probably keep producing for a long
time. As long as the price of crude stays in the $45-$50 range, those
2 barrel per day (bpd) wells will continue to be produced.

Side note,: If anyone doesn't like the price of crude, gasoline, and
heating oil, blame the futures market. Those "profit mongers" and
their speculation on the future price of crude and crude products
caused the high prices and are keeping them artificially high. The
major oil companies are making a lot of profit right now, but they do
not set the price. That is set by the stock/futures market. They are
the same people who kept the price of oil so low for the last twenty
years that millions of jobs were lost and over a million bpd of
domestic production was capped/plugged because it was a money losing
endeavor to try to produce it.


footnotes:
1. from here: http://www.scsc.k12.ar.us/BorneC/gulf.htm
" In 1922, in Norphlet, Arkansas where the largest oil field in
Arkansas was located, the Smackover field, a well exploded and blew
drilling equipment and the derrick high into the air. Balls of red
sand was thrown a mile in all directions with the gas column igniting
through the force of the eruption. The crater produced quickly grew
rapidly consuming everything nearby including the drilling rig,
boiler, and a nearby cemetery, producing a crater that was an acre
wide and 400 feet deep. At the bottom of the crater, escaping gas
bubbled through a pool of oil and water for many weeks."

2. from here: (a story about H.L. Hunt and Murphy Oil)
http://www.nwarktimes.com/story_print.php?paper=adg&Travel=section&storyid=123017
"In May 1922, the focus of ArkansasÂ’ oil boom shifted about nine miles
north from the El Dorado area to the timber hamlet of Norphlet. On May
14, Murphy Well No. 1 gushed into life, producing huge amounts of
natural gas, and becoming the discovery well in the Smackover Field.
This well was historic for two reasons. Not only did it open a vast
new field for development, it created a vast crater that swallowed up
drilling rigs like mere appetizers. The well blew in with such
pressure that the derrick was destroyed and the crew had to run for
their lives. Soon ground around the well began to cave in, and a
crater formed that grew steadily. About two days after the well blew
in, it caught fire and flames shot 300 feet into the air. By the time
it stopped growing and the flames died, the crater stretched 450 feet
across and was more than 50 feet deep."

3. from here:
http://peace.saumag.edu/swark/articles/ahq/union_co/oildiscovery/union_oil_photo/union-oil-photo7.html
photos of the crater throwing mud into the air, and a huge column of
gas blowing freely into the air.

4. from here:
http://peace.saumag.edu/swark/articles/ahq/union_co/oildiscovery/union_oil_photo/union-oil-photo8.html
and here:
http://peace.saumag.edu/swark/articles/ahq/union_co/oildiscovery/union_oil_photo/union-oil-photo9.html
photos of the Norphlet Crater from 70 years ago.

5. from here:
Loading Image...
A photo of this area's discovery well near El Dorado, AR.

If you look through the above series of photos, you can get a good
idea of conditions at the time of the Smackover Oil Boom. (Both Deb
and I were products of people who moved here during the oil boom.)
Including those living in the "tent city", there were over 50,000
people who were here for a couple of years. Lawlessness was a fact of
life, with two to three murders per night.

6. link to a locally located museum, the Arkansas Museum of Natural
Resources: http://www.amnr.org/

Finally, more than almost anyone would want to know about the
formation of oil bearing deposits in the Gulf Coast Region:
http://www.gomr.mms.gov/homepg/regulate/environ/nepa/EPA/Vol.%201/Appendices.pdf


Jim Cook
Smackover Racing
Gas Gas DE300
Team LAGNAF
www.smackovermotorsports.com
Joe Rooney
2005-11-02 07:16:45 UTC
Permalink
"Wudsracer" <***@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

snip

Jim Cook
Post by Wudsracer
Smackover Racing
Gas Gas DE300
Team LAGNAF
www.smackovermotorsports.com
Jim,

Thanks for the write up, oil sounds fascinating. Those must have been some
shallow wells, was there ever signs of ooze here and there before drilling?
Like the La Brea Tar Pits in Los Angeles? (A must see for any oilman)

Three murders a night, you down to one or two these days?

I still haven't figured out how you fished out a broken doo-hickey at the
very bottom of the well, you know when the pumper pipe was broken. Did you
use an extra long coat hangar? Chewing gum on a piece of string?

Great write up, I have a new respect for oilmen.

Cents off on a Pampera, maybe?

GD&R

Joe

XL600R
Wudsracer
2005-11-02 14:54:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by IdaSpode
<snip>
Jim Cook
Post by Wudsracer
Smackover Racing
Gas Gas DE300
Team LAGNAF
www.smackovermotorsports.com
Jim,
Thanks for the write up, oil sounds fascinating. Those must have been some
shallow wells, was there ever signs of ooze here and there before drilling?
Like the La Brea Tar Pits in Los Angeles? (A must see for any oilman)
No ooze. Just "surface geology" by wildcat drillers and promoters,
who recognized the same conditions that fostered the East Texas oil
discoveries. The Cook part of my family came from those same East
Texas oil fields, with my father's dad following several oil booms to
finally settle here around 1930, when my Grandmother Cook declared
that she wasn't living through another oil boom.
Post by IdaSpode
Three murders a night, you down to one or two these days?
Things are a good bit more quiet these days, with crack heads doing
over half the local mischief.
Post by IdaSpode
I still haven't figured out how you fished out a broken doo-hickey at the
very bottom of the well, you know when the pumper pipe was broken. Did you
use an extra long coat hangar? Chewing gum on a piece of string?
I have helped fish out pipe and rods that were dropped in the well
bore while a workover was going on.
The rods will corkscrew to the shape of the id of the tubing.
The pipe will corkscrew to conform to the id of the well's casing.
These are interesting to pull out and unscrew.

We have "spears" with "jaws"/dies attached to an inclined slide.
These spears/fishing tools will screw to the bottom of a joint of
pipe, and when lowered into the well bore at the end of a string of
pipe, will slip inside of the broken joint and "fish" it out of the
hole with the pipe when the jaws slide down and grip the pipe..

This works well, unless the dropped pipe penetrates outside of the
well casing pipe. Then, the pipe is blown in two by an explosive
dangled at the end of a wire line, so that the remaining pipe can now
be fished out of the hole. (this get's expensive quickly. $10,000
repair jobs are easy to acquire.)


In the case of broken rods, a "mouse trap" tool is screwed onto the
bottom of a sucker rod and lowered into the tubing string on the
bottom of the string of rods. This tool will slip over the broken rod
and the internal jaws will grip the broken rod and lift it out with
the rod string.
Post by IdaSpode
Great write up, I have a new respect for oilmen.
Cents off on a Pampera, maybe?
Everything is discounted at our shop. <G>
Post by IdaSpode
GD&R
Thanks, Joe.
Even though I had to sell the XR650L, I will make it on a "chick
ride" with you someday. My friend, who bought the XRL, said that I
could borrow it any time.

Jim
Post by IdaSpode
Joe
XL600R
Mike W.
2005-11-02 12:22:19 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 06:40:26 GMT, Wudsracer
Post by Wudsracer
This is only on topic because we use petroleum products in the
operation of our motorcycles. If you are not interested in the history
of the domestic oil field and related explanations, go to the next
post. This is a long one.
I think someone is writing a book here... Can I get listed as a
contributor? :)
Post by Wudsracer
Jim
Post by Mike W.
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 15:03:14 GMT, Wudsracer
Mike,
I see that you understand the joke about how one becomes a pumper.
That is an old joke fostered by jealous pulling/service rig crew
personnel.
Word... sorta like the sort that would bitch about someone starting their
own thread.
Post by Wudsracer
<preamble to a ramble>
I actually started working in the oil field as early as age 6, washing
tools with condensate/drip gasoline while the crew worked servicing a
well. At the age of 7, I started "tailing rods". (grabbing the rods to
be laid onto ties, instead of hanging them in the derrick, and running
the length of the rod to keep it off the ground and guiding it onto
the rack set up for that purpose.
Other than that, I paid for all my "teenage motorcycles" by painting
oil storage/stock tanks (by hand with a brush) and clearing right of
ways (with a sling blade and kaiser blade).
Some might call it a ditch bank blade...
Post by Wudsracer
At the age of 10, in the
6th grade, after school, I would ride my Cushman out to the oil field
and work in the afternoons and on Saturdays.
Damn.. the only way I am fitting in here is I'm sure I burned some of the
gasoline you pulled out of the ground in my Hodaka:)
Post by Wudsracer
As I got older and larger, I started working on the pulling crew on
Saturdays, when they pulled/serviced wells that belonged to the
family. (Stripper wells that produced oil for which we were paid
$3.50 per 42 gallon barrel.) Dad would run the machine, I would
wrench rods, and an older "pick-up hand" would work derricks.
Shit.. you have to pull a lot of oil to pay for one of those fancy trucks.
Post by Wudsracer
At the age of thirteen, I was still to small to wrench pipe with a
pair of chain tongs, but stout enough to handle the pipe in the
derrick; so dad would have me wrench the rods and then climb the
derrick to work the tubing board while he and the extra hand would
wrench the pipe by hand, with chain tongs and a cheater pipe. (Dad
also running the rig.)
I'm following this.. yet I still have no idea WTF all this activity is
causing to have happen:)
Post by Wudsracer
At the age of 15, I worked my first rod board. After that, most of
my rig work was up in the derricks, since a lot of workers were scared
of heights. I loved being up there.
What a bunch of pussies.
Post by Wudsracer
I still remember that first day. The derrick was a standard
stationary angle iron derrick, and an old one at that. Instead of a
welded together pipe and expanded metal platform to work from, it had
a rough cut 2x12 to stand on while working up there. I climbed up the
70 feet to the rod board, and to my dismay, saw a crack running the
length of the rod board.
I yelled down to Dad,"Dad, There's a crack running the length of this
2x12!"
He yelled back up," That's why you have that safety harness on. Don't
forget to tie it to the derrick leg.!"
Common sense... and yet... that hotel in Portland still supplies no safety
harnesses to the guests. I'll have to note to them next time "I'd be safer
working on an old wooden rod board on a derrick with my friend Jim than
checking into your so-called suite".
Post by Wudsracer
"OK, Dad", and I crawled out on the board and attached the safety
harness's chain to the derrick leg. After a while, I was so busy
working that I forgot to be scared.... and, the board didn't break.
If you have you got a few more minutes, I'll bend your ears a bit.
The water's not even boiling for the coffee... I'm all yours.
Post by Wudsracer
First, a word of explanation.
The type of wells that I worked with on a service rig, are pumping
wells, with the easily recognized pumping unit
http://www.lufkin.com/oilfield/images/conventional.jpg
1. tubing (pipe) hanging from the casing head down into the well bore,
with a check valve on bottom.
2. "sucker rods" hang from the pumping unit down into the tubing. At
the bottom of the string of rods, there is a pump/"plunger" that seals
to the inside of the bottom of the pipe, in a special precision bore
joint of pipe called a "working barrel". When the rods lift up, they
carry a volume of fluid corresponding to the inside bore of the
working barrel. This is lifted the length of the pumping unit's
stroke.
FINALLY!!! I'm starting to get it here. Thanks.
Post by Wudsracer
When the pumping unit lowers the string of rods, a check
valve/standing valve (alloy steel ball and alloy ring "seat") in the
bottom of the working barrel closes. The ball and seat at the bottom
of the traveling valve (the plunger at the bottom of the string of
rods) opens and lets the well's fluid, that is now trapped in the
working barrel, inside the hollow plunger and through another ball and
seat check valve, leaving the fluid above the plunger, which lifts it
up the tubing on the pumping unit's upstroke. As it lifts the fluid
above the plunger, the pressure from the column of fluid in the well
bore opens the ball and seat in the standing valve and floods the area
in the working barrel below the traveling valve. Repeat the process
24 hours per day and 7 days per week. You now know how the pumping
oil well works.
This is the same basic method of lifting fluids out of a well bore
ever since windmills were used.
The wells that I worked/work on are from 1,500 to 5,000 feet deep
(about 2,500' is the average), with a great deal of pressure involved
down hole. As a result of friction and stress, sometimes the sucker
rods break or wear out, the pipe will get a hole in it, and the down
hole pumping equipment will need replacing/servicing. The current fee
for a well service rig and crew runs about $140 to $200 per hour, with
a 4 hour minimum. When my dad was in business servicing wells (they
sold the pulling equipment around 1967), the going rate was about $18
per hour, no minimum. Working under a standard derrick, they would
complete 4 rod jobs or 2 tubing jobs in the average day.
Seems hella rough if you have to pull that 5000' of rod out of the hole.
Post by Wudsracer
When wells are serviced, first the sucker rods and traveling valve
are pulled out of the hole, and hung in the derrick. Then the tubing
is pulled out of the hole and stacked back (leaned into the side) of
the derrick. On smaller rigs, the rods are pulled in doubles (25' long
each x two), and the pipe is pulled in singles (approximately 30'
long). On larger rigs, the rods are pulled in triples and the pipe is
pulled in doubles.
Impressive.
Post by Wudsracer
On the top platform/rod board, I transferred the rods from the
machine's rod elevator to a small swiveling rod holding tool on a
block and line and, after the rod was unscrewed, I transferred the rod
to a "rod hanger", where it stayed until the equipment was put back
into the well. Then, I lifted the rods and suspended them while they
were screwed back together, and then transferred them back to the
rig's pulley and rod elevator.
I hope I don't get to the end of this and discover you are really talking
about your early career in porn.
Post by Wudsracer
On the lower platform/tubing board, after the pipe was unscrewed and
set at a designated spot on the ground, I would unlatch the elevators
as the block traveled down, and guide/lean the now free stands of
pipe against the side of the tubing board. Going back into the hole, I
would lean the pipe back out over the hole and latch the pipe
elevators around the pipe as the rig operator raised the block and
tubing elevator past me.
There was a good bit more involved in what I did up there, but this is
the "short version", so the given explanation will have to suffice for
now.
I will say one more thing, without prompting: The "floor crew" didn't
like it when the derrick hand takes a piss from 70 feet up. <G>
Hmmm.. could explain grumblings at my office too. Good point.
Post by Wudsracer
The class pumping units of the industry are built in Lufkin, Texas, by
Lufkin Industries. Some of the pumping units that I look after have
been in continuous service for over 50 years.
Clearly Microsoft was not a player in this industry.
Post by Wudsracer
http://www.lufkin.com/oilfield/index.html
Smackover's oil field has been in production since 1922, and is now
mostly stripper wells. In 1925 Smackover had the world's largest known
reserve of crude oil, with over 77,000,000 barrels of oil produced in
Smackover during that year.
COOL!
Post by Wudsracer
Due to inefficient production and drilling techniques, much of the
crude was left in the reservoirs underground, as the escaping gas from
the freshly tapped pockets underground produced huge storybook gushers
that sprayed oil twice the height of the drilling derricks, and caused
craters and fires.
One of these is close to where I live & work. When the well quit
blowing out and the fire was extinguished several weeks later, it left
a hole some 100 feet deep and 200 yards across.
I love that movie where John Wayne plays a Red Addair kind of guy. Any job
that involves private jets and dynamite is hella cool. Of course.
Post by Wudsracer
However, because of those same inefficient techniques, the stripper
wells (less than 10 bpd each) will probably keep producing for a long
time. As long as the price of crude stays in the $45-$50 range, those
2 barrel per day (bpd) wells will continue to be produced.
Side note,: If anyone doesn't like the price of crude, gasoline, and
heating oil, blame the futures market. Those "profit mongers" and
their speculation on the future price of crude and crude products
caused the high prices and are keeping them artificially high. The
major oil companies are making a lot of profit right now, but they do
not set the price. That is set by the stock/futures market. They are
the same people who kept the price of oil so low for the last twenty
years that millions of jobs were lost and over a million bpd of
domestic production was capped/plugged because it was a money losing
endeavor to try to produce it.
So we know who the hell they are... let's go fuck em up before they hurt
the SUV industry.
Post by Wudsracer
1. from here: http://www.scsc.k12.ar.us/BorneC/gulf.htm
" In 1922, in Norphlet, Arkansas where the largest oil field in
Arkansas was located, the Smackover field, a well exploded and blew
drilling equipment and the derrick high into the air. Balls of red
sand was thrown a mile in all directions with the gas column igniting
through the force of the eruption. The crater produced quickly grew
rapidly consuming everything nearby including the drilling rig,
boiler, and a nearby cemetery, producing a crater that was an acre
wide and 400 feet deep. At the bottom of the crater, escaping gas
bubbled through a pool of oil and water for many weeks."
The cost of saving the blue whale.
Post by Wudsracer
2. from here: (a story about H.L. Hunt and Murphy Oil)
http://www.nwarktimes.com/story_print.php?paper=adg&Travel=section&storyid=123017
"In May 1922, the focus of ArkansasÂ’ oil boom shifted about nine miles
north from the El Dorado area to the timber hamlet of Norphlet. On May
14, Murphy Well No. 1 gushed into life, producing huge amounts of
natural gas, and becoming the discovery well in the Smackover Field.
This well was historic for two reasons. Not only did it open a vast
new field for development, it created a vast crater that swallowed up
drilling rigs like mere appetizers. The well blew in with such
pressure that the derrick was destroyed and the crew had to run for
their lives. Soon ground around the well began to cave in, and a
crater formed that grew steadily. About two days after the well blew
in, it caught fire and flames shot 300 feet into the air. By the time
it stopped growing and the flames died, the crater stretched 450 feet
across and was more than 50 feet deep."
It's getting bigger as we all sit here so enjoyably and read this tale. I
hope you're still alive by the time I ge to the end of the post.
Post by Wudsracer
http://peace.saumag.edu/swark/articles/ahq/union_co/oildiscovery/union_oil_photo/union-oil-photo7.html
photos of the crater throwing mud into the air, and a huge column of
gas blowing freely into the air.
http://peace.saumag.edu/swark/articles/ahq/union_co/oildiscovery/union_oil_photo/union-oil-photo8.html
http://peace.saumag.edu/swark/articles/ahq/union_co/oildiscovery/union_oil_photo/union-oil-photo9.html
photos of the Norphlet Crater from 70 years ago.
That is *literally* an oil field.
Post by Wudsracer
http://peace.saumag.edu/swark/articles/ahq/union_co/oildiscovery/union_oil_photo/eldorado_pics/busey-well.jpeg
A photo of this area's discovery well near El Dorado, AR.
I knew this would ultimately get back to porn.
Post by Wudsracer
If you look through the above series of photos, you can get a good
idea of conditions at the time of the Smackover Oil Boom. (Both Deb
and I were products of people who moved here during the oil boom.)
Including those living in the "tent city", there were over 50,000
people who were here for a couple of years. Lawlessness was a fact of
life, with two to three murders per night.
If you want to reminice without the oil, come visit Springfield.
Post by Wudsracer
6. link to a locally located museum, the Arkansas Museum of Natural
Resources: http://www.amnr.org/
Finally, more than almost anyone would want to know about the
http://www.gomr.mms.gov/homepg/regulate/environ/nepa/EPA/Vol.%201/Appendices.pdf
Carl... thank you very much for taking the time. It's cool as hell to read
about something that isn't semiconductor based. Lots of history... lots of
machinery... GOOD SHIT.

Alright then,
Mike
Post by Wudsracer
Jim Cook
Smackover Racing
Gas Gas DE300
Team LAGNAF
www.smackovermotorsports.com
--
Mike W.
96 XR400
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)
99 KZ1000P
Wudsracer
2005-11-02 14:35:41 UTC
Permalink
Mike.,
I mostly wrote it for you and other friends, and myself.

John Wayne was playing Red Adair in the movie, no matter what name was
used. http://www.redadair.com/bio.html
Red Adair's brother, Bob Adair, moved to El Dorado, AR after WWII, and
set up Smackover Drilling, a drilling and production company that
operated in the Smackover and El Dorado area oil fields. He passed
away just a few years ago.

Mr J.S. BeeBe, who donated those photographs linked to the last post,
was a friend of my Grandfather and of mine. When I was a small fry, I
would accompany my grandfather, Henry Graves, when he visited Mr.
Beebe. He gave me the run of his equipment yard, where my favorite
activity was to run and jump from one pipe race to another, and to
lift myself up in the air by my belt with the chain hoist. <G>

At the Museum of Natural Resources, there is an exhibit which has
voice and video recording of those who lived here during the oil boom.
Deb's grandmother, Jonnie Ingram, now 101 years old and barely with us
in a local nursing home, is one of those featured on the tapes.

Thanks for wading through all my ramblings, It means a good deal to
me. Think hard about coming down and riding with me sometime. I will
make it worth your while (and promise no death defying trails).

Jim
Post by Mike W.
I love that movie where John Wayne plays a Red Addair kind of guy. Any job
that involves private jets and dynamite is hella cool. Of course.
Mike W.
2005-11-02 15:04:27 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:35:41 GMT, Wudsracer
Post by Wudsracer
Thanks for wading through all my ramblings, It means a good deal to
me. Think hard about coming down and riding with me sometime. I will
make it worth your while (and promise no death defying trails).
Jim
Hell Jim, it means a lot you took the time to write it. But we'll stop here
before any hugging begins (NTTAWWT). I get a life, Alabama and AR are top
of my list for trips.. guaranteed.

Maybe we can hook Gordon up with Deb's aunt. I think he'd date a younger
woman. Really... he has no choice.

Mike


--
Mike W.
96 XR400
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)
99 KZ1000P
HardWorkingDog
2005-11-02 17:24:23 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 06:40:26 GMT, Wudsracer
Post by Wudsracer
This is only on topic because we use petroleum products in the
operation of our motorcycles. If you are not interested in the history
of the domestic oil field and related explanations, go to the next
post. This is a long one.
Wow. That was very cool. Thanks Jim.

-Charles
Wudsracer
2005-11-03 02:38:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike W.
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 06:40:26 GMT, Wudsracer
Post by Wudsracer
This is only on topic because we use petroleum products in the
operation of our motorcycles. If you are not interested in the history
of the domestic oil field and related explanations, go to the next
post. This is a long one.
Wow. That was very cool. Thanks Jim.
-Charles
You're very welcome.

Jim
Edgar Wednesdar
2023-10-04 03:02:21 UTC
Permalink
This is just to say... Was using RockOil "Lite" gearbox oil in Sherco 300 2t for years with no issues... Just thought I'd try their GRO oil, and it completely fried my clutch. DO NOT USE ROCK OIL GRO.
IdaSpode
2005-10-27 15:19:06 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:55:29 -0400, Mike W. <***@emailbiz.com>
wrote:

<snip>
Post by Mike W.
So you could run the expensive stuff but I don't think you have the same
issues to address I do now. Cheap stuff changed frequently would be my rule
for your usage model. I wouldn't limit myself to an MC-specific oil either,
but that's me... check into that for yourself. I'd probably run ATF... I've
heard lots of good stuff about it and no bad, that I can recall.
I don't usually get involved in the oil debates, I've always just used
a good quality automotive oil and try my best to change it often. I've
really had no problems with this regimen, either with wear or
shifting.

I'm now using a Rekluse clutch in my 200. In talking with Al, he
suggested I use Rotella 15W40.

Before the Rekluse, I'd not consider myself much of a clutch abuser.
Now, by the intended purpose of the clutch, it's going to be slipping
a lot more than it ever would have before. I figure oil steps up a
notch in importance now...

Usually, a new 200 will kick off a few metallic slivers during the
first couple of oil changes then settle into depositing small amounts
of what I call "mud", fine metallic particles.

I've got a little over 800 miles on the clutch, six oil changes. While
I can't report on how the clutch plates are holding up, I can say that
I've noticed a marked reduction in the amount of magnetic "mud" on my
drain plug.

To me, that indicates less wear on the tranny internals, the clutch
action is fine, so I'll keep using Rotella. It's only about $7.50/gal
at WallyWorld, $1.88/qt. plus I can use it in my Chevy Oil Burner too.
Post by Mike W.
Mike
David - 05 KTM 200EXC
djones<at>LSidaho.com
http://www.spodefest.net/rmd
http://www.spodefest.net/forum
Mike W.
2005-10-30 14:49:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by IdaSpode
I don't usually get involved in the oil debates, I've always just used
a good quality automotive oil and try my best to change it often. I've
really had no problems with this regimen, either with wear or
shifting.
I'm now using a Rekluse clutch in my 200. In talking with Al, he
suggested I use Rotella 15W40.
Before the Rekluse, I'd not consider myself much of a clutch abuser.
Now, by the intended purpose of the clutch, it's going to be slipping
a lot more than it ever would have before. I figure oil steps up a
notch in importance now...
Hey... you'd do great in cones:)
Post by IdaSpode
Usually, a new 200 will kick off a few metallic slivers during the
first couple of oil changes then settle into depositing small amounts
of what I call "mud", fine metallic particles.
I've got a little over 800 miles on the clutch, six oil changes. While
I can't report on how the clutch plates are holding up, I can say that
I've noticed a marked reduction in the amount of magnetic "mud" on my
drain plug.
To me, that indicates less wear on the tranny internals, the clutch
action is fine, so I'll keep using Rotella. It's only about $7.50/gal
at WallyWorld, $1.88/qt. plus I can use it in my Chevy Oil Burner too.
Informed decision making. Continued good luck.

Mike


--
Mike W.
96 XR400
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)
99 KZ1000P
kxdude4
2005-11-02 23:20:30 UTC
Permalink
I've used type ATF for years in my '97 - works great and the clutch
works sweet! I buy it by the case for under a buck/quart - it sure
beats the crud outta the specialized stuff at the dealerships that
cost 5-7 bucks - both in cost and performance!
G'Luck!
kxdude4


On 25 Oct 2005 14:38:07 -0700, "Ken Shackleton"
Post by Ken Shackleton
Hello All;
I realize that any comment on oil will cause a wide variety of
resonses.....however...
I have a 2001 KX250 and I was wondering if you all use motor oil in the
gearbox as specified by Kawasaki? Has anyone had problems and are there
alternatives?
Auto v. motorcycle?
Synthetic?
ATF?
Thanks
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